Segment 4

DHK:   Those are Sullivan's pedigrees, incidentally.   You probably have most of them or all of them but they're...

MKK:   I have them from his articles.

DHK: These were all taken from his articles.

MKK:   This looks familiar.

DHK:   I have all of the things from the article except one article I was never able to get.

MKK: ... the dynasty of Cappadocia ... I think most of this more or less agrees with the early parts, that's my memory.   I have a bone to pick here.   Iotapianus is listed as 108 A.D., and I think that's a sheer typo on his part, and was misplaced in the table ... a typo, a misreading of notes, or something, because I found no evidence of any such person.   He certainly didn't show any evidence of such.

DHK:   I think there is.

MKK:   No, they were talking about who the first cousin, sister of Sohaemus – Julia Mamaea, not Julia Domna ... Julia Domna was Maesa's sister.   Stanley [ehh?] confuses the devil out of me because of these pairs of sisters.   Julia Mamaea, which somebody said, means walking with a swinging gait or something like that, or maybe that was Maesa for all I know.

DHK:   I would have thought Mamaea meant big breasted,...

MKK:   A different ‘Mammaea' … would sort of sound like that ... adds a new meaning to the phrase ‘mother of the nation'!   Gaius Julius Antiochus Epiphanes is Philopappus .   I find the potential descent from Tiberius' wizard Thrasyllus particularly enjoyable.   Though I've always found it enjoyable to be descended from people in ‘I, Claudius.'

DHK: Yes, right.

MKK:   My version here ... no, I had her as the daughter of Antiochus V Epiphanes, I guess he was a Gaius Julius.   He was not really ‘V' because he was never really the king.   It was his son that was called ‘King Philopappus,' who was Julia Balbilla's brother, and Philopappus was supposed to have married a Herodian princess, I believe, and I said she was presumably – and this is on chronological grounds – the daughter of Julius Agrippa II, because I can't figure out who else she'd be.  

DHK:   Pontus ... I had these pretty much put together at one point.   OK.   Yeah, he had presumably, oh, you have presumably done, I think that's a bit more …

MKK:   Antiochus – Philoppapus .

DHK:   That should be in those charts of …

MKK:   You have probably said that, because my guess, my best estimate, Philopappus should have been born in the 40s to around 50 [A.D.], and assuming his wife was stood in roughly the same relationship to his own age that you would normally find, I would think that would make her a daughter of Agrippa II, if she really was a princess as such.

DHK:   Yes, she was.   I'm quite sure she is identified.

MKK:   You really think so?

DHK: Yes.

MKK:   Yes, I see what it says over here.   I was wondering what the connection was in this point in the table, but a vertical line did not come out, or just barely so.   Yes, I have a postulated woman here.   When I've put a name in brackets and italics and everything in lower case, the convention I'm using means that I'm postulating that an unknown and unnamed woman occupying this genealogical slot would have been a conduit for this particular roster of names, not that that is necessarily the roster of names that she personally bore.   One would have to explain this convention.   It was basically the convention that was used by John Morris.   You know, we could do much worse, also, than to make the point, in connection with the early part of this pedigree, for 6 or 8 generations – the point has been made by others, but it can't be made often enough – that the various royal families of the little kingdoms and principalities [several inaudible words] at the eastern end of the Mediterranean – from, let us say, 100 B.C. to a point where they sort of faded out of history, or to be independent in any way, before 100 A.D., but still, presumably, continued to possess, in many cases, their own royal families or the descendants of same – that these [royal families] formed a, genealogically, an interlocking directorate by intermarriage, and someone said something along the lines of, after a certain point they became so densely intermarried, they were regarded as an interchangeable princely caste of the eastern Mediterranean, any one of whom might rule in any one of these small nations.  

DHK:   It sounds exaggerated, but still …

MKK:   The major reason for this point is, that you can say, if you can actually trace a descent from the princes of Emesa, you would expect, on general principles, to find all sorts of other female-line connections with so many other of these kingdoms.   It is not an adventurous supposition.  

DHK:   This is incidentally from a different part, but from yesterday, what we were talking about.   I was trying to talk about Baldwin and Eustace.   And here they are, grandchildren of Gundwin .   He founded Grandval with Germanus, who was the brother of a Mamalian [ehh?] Bishop of Treves, and he, you've got also a connection with Luxeuil, and Saint Eustace was of Luxeuil, and was a nephew of Miguel of the Flanders [ehhhhh????], Bishop of Langres, so you've got the connection going, and then, this is something that people haven't picked up, it's in a hagiographic source, but the Abbott of Saint Benignus was a Eustadius or a Eustace, who was the son of Gregorius Attalus and uncle of the bishops of Tours .   So that I think that, and you have Gunderic, Bishop of Treves, you see, as a brother of Magneric almost certainly, although not specified, but Magneric is a descendent of Tetradius.

MKK:   The lengths of the tenures are significant also.  

DHK:   Of course.

MKK:   This is a man who, in early or middle life, became bishop and after a very short tenure was immediately followed by someone with an assonantal name, or whatever you want to call it – strongly indicating that he was a brother of the saint.

DHK: Yes, that's what I think, and I also think these are the first, as far as I'm aware, the first Germanic names in the list of the bishops of Treves and I think that they tie in with the Germanic names at Tours, and these were probably … Nicetius, Bishop of Treves, you see, has a name derived from the Tours family, and I think that there's a very good chance that these are sons of Baldwin – and that they tie in with this Gundwin, here, and that brings in a question of Saint Leger, here, who was bishop of Autun, and whose son was Saint Lievin, Bishop of Treves ...so you've got Basin, Biship of Treves there at 671, and Saint Lievin at 695-713, and you've got connections both to Treves and to Autun, and I think to Langres and Tours.   Now, Miguel [ehh?] was bishop, was of Langres when Munderic was Bishop of Langres, and Modoald was Bishop of Langres.   And that's the other Modoald.

MKK:   And you would think that, you make Munderic Bishop of Langres because you think the connection came through his mother, which would be quite different from whoever Settipani identified as Ansbert's wife, as I recall.

DHK: Well, he had two wives.

MKK:   Oh that's right, I've seen it in one of your charts.   One of the sources actually says so, doesn't it?

DHK:   Yes.

MKK:   There was a list of children by each side.

DHK:   Yes, so, yes. And so I think his other wife was the daughter of Gundulf of Marseilles, and it's tying the Gundulf-Munderic names together in the same way as they are on the other line, but I am arguing that this Gundulf is Roman.   So you can see what I'm trying to do with that section.

MKK:   Gundulf is the Duke of Marseilles, that is, Gregory's uncle?   Is this not correct?

DHK:   Yes.

MKK:   He talks about receiving – and how he's going off to lead a campaign and so forth –   ‘I received him all the more warmly as I realized he was my mother's uncle.'   Which is a rather odd way of putting it.   I realized that he was my mother's uncle.  

DHK:   Yeah, well, he probably had never met him, and never had any contact with him previously.   And when they got to talking, is when he found out.

MKK:   And again, the point that I would like to make in this connection is that, what would it take to induce a racially and socially proud Gallo-Roman family to name one of its sons in the year 490 or so with a blatantly German name such as Gundulf – and I think it would take some very significant connection indeed that was being referred to, to induce them to do anything of the sort.

DHK:   Right here, I think, we've got too many damn tables [hmmm??].   The argument I made is that there is a known marriage of a Florentinus with a daughter of a Burgundian king, and likely to be ancestor, likely to be the grandfather of both Florentinus, the later Florentinus, who was the father of Findel [ehhh?].   So you've got a fairly probable connection, almost immediately.

MKK:   I would change this chart, by the way, now, in one respect.   I have either Iotapianus the usurper as being in the same generational level as Uranius Antoninus the usurper, primarily because they ‘usurped' around the same time.   But the coin of Uranius Antoninus, too, makes it clear from its depiction that he was a young man, the description in PIR says a laureato juvenis, whereas the depiction of Iotapianus is clearly that of a man of middle years.   I think I would put him now in the generation of Uranius, right here, I would now put him in the same generation as Elagabalus and Uranius Antoninus I.

DHK:   Iotapianus ...

MKK:   As a matter of fact, I would say that my secondary hypothesis, if there really was no such man as Uranius Antoninus at this point, is that this man [Iotapianus] might fit into the same slot and serve the same genealogical function.   He could have been the brother of Elagabalus and the father of the Uranius Antoninus we definitely know about.   It's risky to say, but my guess is, as we're looking at this coin, that we're talking about a man of about 40-45, slightly receding hairline, slightly visible lines under the eyes and so forth, but clearly not elderly.   That's fairly hard evidence that he should move up a generation.  

DHK:   Now, what do you think the ‘Ru -' stands for?

MKK:   I have looked and looked at various names in Ru -, 'cause there are a lot of names like Rutilius, Ruptilius and so forth.

DHK:   Ruricius, Rusticus …

MKK:   There are an awful lot of them.   I also looked at Fulby [ehhh?] to see whether they had any Ru - names, either it was part of their own patrimony or tagged to them by marriage.   Based on coin – one of the problems here that I see is this, this is a chronological problem – we've traced the family of Sopater down to Iamblichus the Younger, born say 330, as nearly as I can tell, I don't know if I can push it back any farther than that.

DHK:   Well, if Himerius was born 300, you could push it a little in here, but not much.

MKK:   I was thinking also, he's supposed to be sort of going on a world tour, as a young man, around the 360s, I don't think he could be more than 30 on that basis.   Whatever.   The point here is that you are already down, with Iamblichus, to a point at which, to a man who is of the same generation as the earliest Tetradius we know of, and therefore cannot be his father.   My general point would be that Tetradius, the proconsularis vir at Trier in 385, we have Tetradius the grammaticus of Angouleme ca . 379, he's probably a man born in the 330s, 340s, something like that, although he could be older.   There's nothing preventing him from being a man of 70 or so.   Grammatic [makes no sense] he may very well have been –

DHK:   Elder sages, in some respect, in some cases ....

MKK:   – my point is, that the evidence that we have seems to show the entry into Gaul of plausible conduits for this Syrian blood, earlier than the point at which Sopater's genealogy trails off, and really earlier than Iamblichus himself.   I can't help but feel that Agroecius, who appears to have been born about 275, is one of the routes that leads in, although I thought it perhaps more likely that he was of, he was somehow associated with some of these other families, the Ambrosii.

DHK:   Now the Ambrosii are gents [gens?].   You've got [i.e., MKK's chart has] Aurelia Symmacha as, possibly, a wife of Ambrosius, but all of the indications I've seen suggest rather that the Symmachus connection was directly with Ambrosius.   Well, you've got on the right there, you've got Lucius Avienus Symmachus and Quintus Aurelius Symmachus Eusebius, and I suspect that there is a good chance that he was an uncle of Satyrus.

MKK:   So you think he might have been ...

DHK:   He's an Aurelius.

MKK:   How would this work out, though?   What would be the connection?   What would be the connection that would make Avienus Phosphorios parens of Uranius Satyrus, and his son, brother-in-common with Uranius and Saint Ambrose?   I've never quite been able to work it out in my own mind, and I'm very uncertain about this part of this chart.   Exactly what was going on here?

DHK:   OK.   When I say frater communis, it means that both Uranius and his brother are relatives of Symmachus and his brother.   So at the ...

[June 2, 1999 – Side B]

DHK:   OK, getting back to this ... I've got some notes here somewhere.   Let's see if I can find them.   I did pull out some of my most relevant charts, but of course they get mixed up with my least relevant charts, and I end up sometimes with ...

MKK: How was Papinian the kinsman of Julia Domna?

DHK:   Who was?

MKK:   The jurist, Papinian?

DHK: ...oh, that I had missed ...

MKK:   Yeah, he's called explicitly a kinsman of the empress Julia Domna and I would very much like to know how that worked out.

DHK:   Yes, Papinianus ... so he'd be connected with a Papus?   And ...

MKK:   You know, it also occurs to me looking at this, I have Saint Soter who is martyred at Trier sub Diocletiano, and Saint Soteris, virgo, martyred sub quinavariuarus [ehh?], supposedly in Rome .   It leads me to wonder whether Soter and Soteris are not one and the same person, and have been confused as to sex in one source.   And whether she was not actually martyred at Trier, not at Rome at all?

DHK:   The text is fairly clear that she was, and it's either Ambrosius or his sister.

MKK:   But it does say where she is?

DHK:   Yes, at Rome .   It says it ... and that doesn't mean that they weren't martyred as part of ... and I have a date as well, which is a specific date, but may be an inference, I'm not sure, but..where have I put that piece of paper, I noticed that as I was looking at it earlier and yes, there is that … But I'm quite sure that she is going to be ... Incidentally, have you found anything more on the Theodora whose grandfather was Eusebius and who was a descendant of Sampsigeramus?

MKK:   No, I'm pretty sure that I have not.   Does she appear somewhere on this chart?   I remember her clearly … Yes she does ... although she may be clipped out here now that I think about it, at the top of one of these sheets.

DHK:   She's way down here ...

MKK:   We've got Eusebius grandfather of Theodora here, and I put him up, set him above Diogenes and Seterena [ehhh?] because we don't know through which one he would have been grandfather, but she got clipped off my version of this chart.   I should have actually made the expansion a little less extreme, it's pushed the edges off.   My inference of the date of the martyrdom of Saint Soteris is just that it was about 304, simply because that was absolutely the height of the Diocletianic persecution.

DHK:   Yep, well, maybe, but ... I have seen it as 304, but I don't remember where or how positive it was.   And I think it is likely there was both a Soter and Soteris and ...

MKK :   ... there are a vast number of connections here, but an awful lot of people just sort of floating in space, linked only by their names.   I feel certain that Agroecius of Trier plays some major role here ... all descendants of the brother or sister [this phrase can't be right].   Notice such things as the fact that the Agroecius who is an imperial official in Gaul, is killed with a Rusticus and an Apollinaris in 413 – that's the kind of connection you might expect on the basis of the old [??] theory ... (DHK:   yep) ...

DHK:   Priestanantio [ehhh?] in Syria ... that's the sort of thing we should definitely check against that saints bibliography.   That's a pretty good collection.

MKK:   You raise a point that I would like more information on.   You've frequently made reference to things that you've found in saint's lives, and I have no access to any body of saints' lives of any magnitude that isn't in Latin, and I don't read Latin.   There's the Acta Sanctorum or whatever it's called ... a huge, huge compilation ...

DHK:   Yes, I worked a fair amount with that while I was in England, I haven't worked any with it since.

MKK:   What is really needed is for someone to systematically go through it and abstract out all of the tiresome miracles and so forth, and hagiographical boilerplate, as I call it, weed that out, and abstract out of the remainder the hard statements of residence, date, and genealogical bearings, in English.

DHK:   That would be helpful l...

MKK :   ... the work of a lifetime, I suppose ...

DHK:   Yes, and we do have, oh, what's his name, that chap ... he was the one who did all of this, he did this massive collection of saints' lives, which was published in an 8- or 10-volume set, and it's …

MKK :   ... a long way back perhaps?   (DHK: Yes ) ... Sabine Baring-Gould ... (DHK: yes, yes) ... good old Sabine Baring-Gould …

DHK:   There's a wonderful biography of him somewhere, by, oh, it actually may be, oh, he plays a role in one of Laura King's mystery novels and the picture that she gives of him is a remarkable and fascinating one, but anyhow, he, of course, had no objection at all to lots of miracles.   And couldn't chronological miracles [something awry here], but (MKK: I know what you mean [I may have then, but no longer!]) occasionally he picked up on something.   He is the one from whom I got certain ideas about connections that I think will hold up.   There's good Gallo-Roman stuff and he at least tells you that there were five saints of these names celebrated on the same date or celebrated on different dates and so on, and that's material which is sometimes extremely helpful, getting the sections [??] on which the saints are celebrated can tell you an awful lot about   who they were.   He may even know of a particular date.

MKK:   How much of a sweep do you think that Mathisen made through the Acta Sanctorum for his database?

DHK:   Very little.   I would say that he used the Acta Sanctorum, the more reputable lives of the Acta Sanctorum, he used substantially.   But I don't think he had recognized that the statements of the person and the parentage [inaudible] are the things that are most apt to be correct.   And ...

MKK:   Even if most of the lives, even if most [inaudible] of the lives, are patent fantasy, I have a strong impression with respect to many of them that they may have gotten names of real people and some real relationships out of a fragmentary documentation that survived.   They just built a thick cotton candy of ...

DHK: ... yes ....

MKK: .... hagiography around them ...

DHK:   Basically, the person giving the funds generally said, for the remembrance of myself, and sometimes have specified relatives, usually the parents, much more rarely a brother or sister or something, and usually, those saints and their days are given in the particular church.   So a saint is often a children of saints, but by ‘saint' we mean merely somebody who is commemorated on a particular date.   So you go back and forth between saints of one sort and another.

MKK:   I want to stress with respect to this, I've probably mentioned it before but I want to put it on tape here, when I said ‘mainly pagan' to the left and ‘mainly Christian' to the right, I meant literally ‘mainly' and not seeming to apply to the whole.   There are exceptions, and of course in both, the pagan side is turning Christian at some point.   This just reflects my general impression that at points that can be thought of, abstractly, as geographical, genealogical, and chronological, if followed to about here on the chart, there is sort of a confluence of two major strands – one primarily pagan, the other primarily Christian – and they were, my feeling is that they were coming together on the basis of the natural convergence between Neoplatonist ideas and 4th-century Christian episcopal notions.   I thought they would have found each other better company than you would imagine, than most people would imagine today.

DHK:   I agree with you.  

MKK:   Would you consider it necessary or desirable to deal in any way in the course of an article or monograph on the subject with the family, with the Apollinares, and the Rustician setting?

DHK:   Well, we should certainly, I'm not sure ‘deal with,' but we should certainly spend some time on …

MKK:   They do seem to interlock with the rest of the thing as a form of evidence.   It's important that you mention Nicetius of Trier, who shows himself, shows a connection, one of several connections, with Gregory of Tours.

DHK:   There's a back and forth there.

MKK:   I'm not sure if I have anything further of value to say at the moment ... is there anything on the subject you want to discuss here?

DHK:   I want to go back over, and at one point I had this all blown up to this size and fastened together and so on …

MKK:   Yes, yes, you sent me a copy of this.

DHK:   I've got to go through and sort out and actually toss away certain amounts of rubbish and copies because it's time to get past them.

MKK:   I'm glad we arrived at the same conclusion, considering that Iamblichus of Chalcis was a son of Uranius Antoninus Two.   We may arrive at these conclusions by very different chains of reasoning, but the very fact that we do so by different chains of reasoning, and yet still arrive, on the basis of the same evidence, at the same conclusion, is encouraging.

DHK:   It means that two sets of evidence ...

MKK: ... we both looked at various facts here and said, it looks to me that it is through this person that a connection can be postulated on a priori grounds.

DHK:   and I think that, we operate on quite smaller premises but even so ...

MKK :   … it is certainly possible to disagree, we might have done so ...

DHK :   … we have occasionally disagreed …

MKK :   … that's inevitable.   It would be worrisome if we never did disagree!

DHK :   … very worrisome indeed …

MKK:   It would indicate that one of us was just leading the other.   I am interested in the origin of a number of [inaudible].   That is another point that we might discuss.   What the literal meaning of certain names might – say, or groups of names, taken together, that seem to be grouped by their structure and meaning – what that might indicate as to their origin.

DHK:   This is one where I think that we need to think about it, we need to be very careful.   Triclosa [??], for example.   It's a perfectly good name.   It means pretty.   It is presumably something that arrives as an adjectival name at some point.   Now beyond that, it might start getting inherited.

MKK:   I was thinking more of examples that would seem a little more suggestive, such as the various names that relate to cities in Phoenicia …

DHK:   Oh yes, names like that I definitely agree.

MKK:   Tyrius is a good example ... it's quite striking ...

DHK:   Tyrius and Sidonius .

MKK:   Tyrius and Sidonius can come from nothing but the cities of Tyre and Sidon ...

DHK :   … and there's the one that well, Tetradius is probably another of the same sort ...

MKK :   ... it may be of the same sort as Pentadius should be as well ...

DHK:   Oh, Pentadius definitely is, because it's referring to a particular ‘pentad' of cities, and it's known which cities they are ...

MKK:   Would that be the one in North Africa?

DHK:   Well, some of them are in North Africa, but the five cities are eastern Mediterranean and North Africa .   I could figure out what they are, but I don't know which four cities are indicated by Tetradius .   [possibly a tetrad of four major pagan gods?]

MKK:   One thing I suspect, is that it might have been what are occasionally described as the four principal ancient cities of Phoenicia .   Some lists will tell you that there were four.   There were Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, the fourth one I can't recall (DHK: Tems [??]), no that's generally not considered one of them (DHK: OK), occasionally you'll see it listed as four, sometimes as five, and one city that has appeared, I don't know if it's one of the four or one of the five, or whether you'd know which, was Arad, which struck me because at one point I'd figured that, I had thought it might be a [inaudible] Sidonius' ancestors bore the name ‘Aradius,' which is a name of the same form I think and (DHK: could be), and at the time – I wrote up a note about this to present it to you – at the time I thought the name derived from a completely different source, but subsequently, since, thinking about Tyrius and Sidonius, of course you see other city names that relate to places outside Syria, such as Antiochus, as far as that goes, and Chalcedonius, my suspicion would be...

DHK:   Antiochus I think goes the other way ...

MKK :   … with Antioch named after Antiochus?

DHK:   Yes, it was named after the first Antiochus of the Seleucid dynasty.

MKK:   I can believe that.   I would wonder whether people might have been named Chalcedonius, though as a sort of religious-reference name, because of the Council of Chalcedon .   You couldn't make that argument for names like Tyrius or Sidonius, because they were not major bishoprics, they did not have major Christian associations.